Neubauer: 'There is a risk that we will divide ourselves'

The interview was conducted in German.

Ms. Neubauer, could you imagine Greta Thunberg appearing again at the next Fridays for Future climate strike in Germany?

The question does not currently arise.

What would have to happen?

Anyone in Germany can invite Greta Thunberg, it's not up to me, and that's a good thing.

Differing positions on the Gaza war have resulted in friction between the German and international Fridays for Future groups. Will there be reconciliation talks at COP28?

I am cautious with my expectations of the climate conference, both politically and interpersonally. The conference does not have the reputation of being the most salutary place for exhausted activists. However, we will, of course, talk a lot about what happened and how we can reunite.

Will there be joint campaigns by the young protest movement?

Of course, there will be campaigns and protests, but how exactly and in what form, I don't know yet. But it's not as if we in Germany, in particular, have problems with what is being said internationally. From an international perspective, Germany's stance is a particular problem.

Are the German Fridays internationally isolated?

Not really, our partners from Austria, Switzerland, France and others are also close to our position. The normative mean of the international climate movement is somewhere else when it comes to this issue.

What happened in the past six weeks? Has a rift appeared that has been there for some time?

Since I became involved in the international movement, there has been a mistrust of white European climate activists: How serious are we about climate justice? I can understand that, in principle. False promises have been made for too long by generations before us. And that has now been proven true again in the eyes of some: That when things get tough, we don't stand by our partners and friends. But even outside the climate movement, we are seeing how uncomprehending and disappointed people are looking at the German position on Israel and Gaza. Even among international organizations: In the past, people didn't want to work for USAid, now we hear of a similar attitude towards German organizations.

What is the reason for this mistrust?

Many feel abandoned by how Germany is navigating the crisis. Many see the support of civil society in Gaza as a secondary concern. The climate movement is a small projection screen for this. But there is a second factor behind this mistrust: We Fridays in Germany, particularly, are pragmatically socialized in the activist trade because we realized early on that we can make a difference and change things. I also saw this with activists who prevented a dam in Cambodia. They went to prison for it and were awarded the Alternative Nobel Prize – but they prevented the dam. They are totally oriented towards realpolitik. Suppose your own system gives you the impression that you can't win no matter what and even small advances seem hopeless. In that case, your own radicalism becomes more identity-forming than the actual organizing.

But hasn't the international climate justice movement long since embraced the official positions of the Global South vis-à-vis the Global North? When it says "system change, not climate change" and is associated with a fundamental rejection of policies from the capitalist Global North?

That was not the case for us. We are also calling for "system change" in Germany, if by "system" we mean exploitative conditions, for example. We are continuing to work on breaking up these North-South fronts by stating that we are telling a new story of young people who do not allow themselves to be divided by a clearly exploitative past.

But isn't that what's happening right now – that you're dividing yourselves?

The risk is there.

What needs to happen for this rift to stop widening?

I don't have a simple solution for this. We certainly need to raise awareness of the historical responsibility that not only rests on Germany's shoulders, but is a global responsibility. This also means recognizing anti-Semitism and acknowledging Israel's right to exist. But we are also called upon to find a genuine and appropriate political approach to the situation in Gaza. I can understand why Germany is accused of not taking a clear enough stand to put an end to the dying in Gaza. It would be an important step if we, as Germany, could manage to work towards a lasting ceasefire to protect civilians.

Is the climate movement in Dubai so preoccupied with itself that it is no longer a driving force?

This attitude does surprise me: Nobody has been interested in the international movement for the last three years. Now, you could get the impression that international work is our linchpin. The international climate movement is huge, Fridays for Future is a relatively small part of it. We are very big in Germany, but seldom in other countries. Of course, there will be activists from other countries doing their thing. I don't think the debate within the Fridays will make such a difference. Only a fraction of Fridays are going to the COP. And we also believe that any reconciliation processes may not have to happen exclusively in the two weeks when we have the chance to influence international climate democracy.

You say the Fridays are not so relevant that their problems will influence the conference?

The sentiment is relevant, but it's not a Fridays issue, it's a global issue. It has less to do with the climate movement than with global civil society. It is currently in a different place than the German raison d'état. I don't want to downplay what we are doing, but international dynamics are more powerful than we are. However, there is one difference: We, as the German Fridays for Future movement, have always been able to set a lot in motion at the COPs: We know our way around, we have considerable capacities, we know the craft, and we can apply it well. A year ago at the COP in Egypt, we were able to accompany large parts of the protests. We were able to open up these spaces well, partly because we are privileged as people with a German passport. That will be more difficult now. We have been put in a situation where cooperation is always associated with explanatory and mediation work. That contradicts the rush-hour logic of a climate conference.

How important are the conferences? Many are skeptical.

There are huge deficits, but there is currently no alternative. There is a media reflex to exaggerate the COP as the singular highlight of the year. But the fifty weeks between the COPs are just as important as the two weeks at the COP. And what has not been achieved beforehand can't be ironed out there. But we need places where we can come together as a civil society.

You say that Fridays have been talked down in Germany. Where do you see that?

For the past two or three years, there has been significant public surprise that it is not so easy to do climate activism in Germany. Yes, of course, we lose sometimes. Because we are in such a huge crisis for which no solution has been found over the last 50 years. We can't just turn it around in a few years and surf away on a green tide. We started out as FFF in an incredible climate hype, which was a total exception even back then. But we wouldn't need a climate movement if we didn't have hard times.

Why has the mood in Germany turned so much against climate action in the last year?

There are many explanations for this. One reason is certainly that some chancellor thought he could outsource the climate problem to one party and even just one ministry. And if half of Germany then lashes out at this minister, then that is not the chancellor's problem. But if you can't make climate demonstratively a top priority, then the whole thing will fall apart. He would have to enforce a minimum ecological discipline in the cabinet so we don't negotiate whether we meet the climate targets. And if you cannot propose a better plan for the current situation, then you have no right to make proposals. If you don't do all this, as Chancellor Scholz has failed to do, we end up at a point where the existential crisis of our time is turned into a private problem for [German Economy Minister] Robert Habeck. And confidence and trust in the German government and democracy are lost in the process and resignation takes hold of this society.

How do you fight this resignation?

Most people mean well. And do their best. That often looks very different, and that's okay. If resignation is the beginning of the end, and politically speaking, the greatest threat to climate and democracy, because it is those who resign themselves who will allow a shift to the right and a climate crisis – then the fight against my own resignation is a very trivial part of my daily activism. And in the next step, all doors are open if we just look closely.

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