Frenzel: 'It's a classic defense reflex to drag unpleasant revelations through the mud'

Mr. Frenzel, your book "China Leaks" sheds light on "Beijing's secret network in Germany." Your research was based on a document from the dark net that lists representatives of the so-called United Front who are involved in influence operations in Germany on behalf of China. How could you be sure that the list was genuine?

Journalists in several countries discovered the list. A colleague from Sweden, for example, had received it from security circles in Stockholm, where it had already been checked. In the end, a research network from ten countries spent two years verifying all the names on it, and as investigative journalists, we also confronted the people on the list directly. This revealed a network consisting of officials from friendship associations, the people behind illegal police stations, but also employees of Chinese consulates and the embassy, who regularly exchange information. In order to paint a complete picture, I have also focused on German politics and business. The regime's supporters include people like Rudolf Scharping or former Interior Minister Hans-Peter Friedrich, as well as the AfD or left-wing politicians like Sevim Dağdelen, who are stirring up public opinion in favor of China.

You are not a sinologist yourself and you never dealt with China before. How did you handle the language barriers and cultural peculiarities?

For the research cooperation, we had three recognized China experts with us who are familiar with the power structure. Mareike Ohlberg from the German Marshall Fund in Berlin, Laura Harth from Madrid-based Safeguard Defenders and Peter Mattis from the Jamestown Foundation in Washington, D.C. Mattis worked for the CIA on China for many years. Some native speakers helped us clearly identify the names, for example.

Your book sparked controversy shortly after it was published. You were accused of hating China.

That didn't come as a surprise to me, it's the classic defense reflex to drag unpleasant revelations through the mud. Personally, I can say that I truly appreciate Chinese culture. I have traveled to China several times and have been fascinated by its speed of development. The country has achieved enormous things, including the fight against poverty. I also find it impressive what German companies like VW have built up in China. These are great success stories. But the regime has become increasingly ruthless in recent years. And here you have to consider whether economic success justifies all means. Many people who benefit from cooperation with China or do well with it deliberately turn a blind eye to the bad aspects. I have put a lot of energy into this book because I really do see our democracy and our free way of life threatened by this criminal Chinese regime.

You have also been accused of placing Chinese citizens under general suspicion in the search for agents of influence.

This, too, is a well-known knock-down argument to discredit research. The people on the list who are playing into the hands of the Chinese regime represent only a fraction of the over 200,000 people of Chinese descent in Germany. The vast majority are not Chinese submarines 2. I never claimed that. It is important to understand that the people on the list are not spies in the traditional sense, who were officially employed for this purpose. That's the insidious thing about the Chinese approach, that it's easy to say, well, they're just telling their story, and we don't have to believe them. But it's not that simple. The communists call the United Front their magic weapon for good reason. It's about bringing everything that's anybody outside the Communist Party into line. And during my investigations, I noticed this again and again: Even supposed political rivals of the CCP only speak highly of the Communists. For me, this is the pure form of conformity we can observe in the heart of Europe today.

What specific dangers do you see for us?

Take a look at Australia. You can see where infiltration can lead. There, the Chinese side apparently had planned to operate directly within the national government. An intermediary had tried to virtually control an important minister by acting as a financially strong donor. The plot was uncovered and the politician resigned. For this reason, Australia has introduced the criminal offense of 'foreign interference' – an admittedly still somewhat vague term that covers various forms of influencing operations. Anyone convicted of foreign interference can now be jailed for several years.

So what characterizes an agent of influence?

An agent of influence is not a classic spy who uses espionage methods to gather information. Instead, he deliberately fuels sentiments that are in the interests of the Chinese Communist Party. It's not about bribery in the traditional sense, which would already be illegal in our country. It is about narratives that are used and thus find their way into our politics and provoke consequences that are not in our interests. This type of interference is also a new challenge for Germany, and German courts and legislation must adapt to this phenomenon.

Is it even legitimate to speak of a United Front strategy?

There are several strategies. One is to get as close as possible to foreign politicians and even bring their own people into politics. Another is to promote China's history abroad – through cultural associations, for example. These people are also door-openers who may not realize how crucial their work is for the regime. They say they are not surveilling anyone. At the same time, these people usually have a close relationship with the embassy or one of the four consulates general. And then, of course, there are more concrete things like the overseas police stations, which the Chinese government downplays as service stations that are only supposed to help the Chinese abroad with everyday life and small bureaucratic chores. But they spread enormous fear among regime opponents. Even here in Germany.

You have also taken a closer look at the Confucius Institutes: Do they really do anything different from the Goethe Institutes, which aim to promote Germany and German culture?

The German government is not a dictatorial regime. It does not tell the directors of the Goethe-Instituts which topics they may and may not cover. Anything that strengthens the coexistence of cultures and countries is a good thing. Nor do I criticize when someone presents a millennia-old culture in a positive light. It only becomes problematic when you talk up a criminal regime and make pacts with it, a regime that has gone to extremes again under Xi Jinping. There are certainly people on the list who are less involved with the regime than others. But they all play a role in Chinese propaganda and influence operations. They all contribute to the infiltration of Germany, either because they believe in it or hope to gain a personal advantage from it.

A woman from Mannheim accused you of witch-hunting her mother because she was shown in a photo with Winfried Kretschmann at a public event. And that you had contacted her under the pretext of filming an article about her TCM health center.

The woman you mentioned not only posted a photo with Minister President Kretschmann, but also some with Cem Özdemir and with Danyal Bayaz, the Finance Minister of Baden-Württemberg. I also have other pictures of her with other Green Party members from the state parliamentary group, taken in the state parliament. That shows me that she has exchanged ideas with them; she is well-connected, and makes an effort to build relationships, including as chairwoman of a cultural center in the Rhine-Neckar region. There is also a photo of her from China, where she sits at a table with regime representatives. She admitted in conversation that she cooperates with the consulate general in Frankfurt. And there are scientific publications that state that the Communist regime deliberately uses TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, to open doors to foreign societies.

You say you were under surveillance while working on your book. By whom?

Photos with information about a high-ranking Chinese officer disappeared from my cell phone. Later, my private laptop – and another computer from my personal environment – was suddenly switched to Chinese, although I had never done this and don't normally use it for my research. In the early stages of my research, I also noticed that I was constantly surrounded by Asian-looking people on public transport. In one subway, a woman wearing a face mask held her cell phone directly at me for several minutes, apparently filming me. There is also a video of this in my documentary for RTL. German security authorities have confirmed to me that the Chinese security services have apparently targeted me.

What did these people want from you?

I have the feeling that this was mainly about intimidation. The message was: 'We know exactly what you're doing, we're in your devices and image files'. This is another reason why we in Germany need to build up a targeted cyber defense against China, as our security is at significant risk.

What do you say to people who argue that the US is also spying on us?

The USA also pursues a clear power policy. However, it still remains a liberal constitutional country. And the massive and quite justified criticism of the USA often voiced in Germany is based on information that comes to light through outstanding American investigative journalists. This shows that a functioning democracy exists there – at least so far – where critical media coverage is possible.

Markus Frenzel is an investigative reporter for the German TV channel RTL. After studying politics in Berlin, Aix-en-Provence and Paris, he worked for Deutsche Welle and the ARD magazine FAKT for many years. He has received several journalism awards for his research, including the Marler Media Prize for Human Rights, the German-Polish Journalist Award, and the European Parliament Journalism Prize.