Mr. Kubilius, the EU wants to make more money available for defense, as proposed in the white paper, but has not made a clear proposal as to which projects the money should be used for. Why is that?
Defense is really a national prerogative and those opportunities to spend during the next four years of around €650 billion budgetary sources, without being afraid to violate the deficit is a really big opportunity. Also €150 billion euros of attractive loans. Now the member states need to decide. We are trying to incentivize member states for joint procurement. Because that would be really very crucial that member states overcome some kind of, I don't know how to call it ....
.... national egoism? You are the commissioner for defense, I'm sure you have some key projects in mind when we are talking about a joint European defense, what would be these projects?
I see two angles how we are overcoming so-called capability gaps. One is that we need to produce, massively produce, what we call more of the same. For example, ammunition. When I hear the numbers, how limited are our resources in Europe of simple ammunition? I will not tell you about the numbers, but... It's ridiculous. Second, we need to go for Defence Projects of Common European Interest (DPCEI), those are the projects which a single country cannot implement. It's like an air defense system, which we want to have really established for the goal, let's say, the sky of Europe. We are talking about European drone and counter-drone programs, European cyber and electronic warfare capability. We are very heavily dependent on American assistance, in terms of strategic enablers, cargo airlift system and space intelligence data. In June, we shall bring a list of options.
The white papers say that Ukraine remains the central area for determining the shape of the new international order, not only the European order. And you said recently: I'm not happy with the EU support. Can we do more?
Yes, we can do more. And – we did a lot. If you look back in 2022, I was in the European Parliament then, it was quite a miracle that the European Union in general was able to make decisions and to start to support militarily. But I'm always saying, is it enough? So, my view is that we can increase. And I see possibilities for member states to use the loans we propose in the white paper to assist Ukraine. Because those loans can be used for the benefit of the Ukrainians, even to procure in Ukraine. And I hope that we shall do.
You're from Lithuania, so I don't have to tell you about the threat awareness against Russia. But people in Italy or Spain see it differently. There is a growing unwillingness from those countries to do more for Ukraine.
Yes there is. Because I see that there is a lack of understanding on the European continent that security is a collective good. We need to speak with everybody. If you are not developing your own capabilities according to NATO capability targets, in some way, you are 'betraying' us. So, I see that as a crucial question of solidarity. I remember the refugee crisis in 2015 when several countries were hit by waves of refugees, and they were saying that they needed our solidarity support from all the EU member states. Some of us were looking and saying it's not our business. We are far away – for example, in Lithuania. Until (Belarus dictator) Lukashenko started to send us all those instrumentalized migrants. Then, we began to understand that solidarity is very important. Now it's the same. Now, defense is a solidarity issue.
Italy's finance minister already criticized Germany for spending enormous money. All of a sudden, debts are no longer an issue. But for Italy or Spain, it is an issue. How do you get them to spend more on defense?
I don't know. Italians and Spaniards have very strong defense industries. So when Germans are investing in defense, they also invest in the defense industry. And when the whole of Europe will start to invest in the defense industry, my guess is that a lot of industries in Spain and Italy will have much more contracts. So they should be very positive about it.
Do you think that the United States will be antagonized by the " Buy European " philosophy?
That’s a funny thing. Once they were asking Europeans to take care of their own defense, they were absolutely correct: 450 billion million Europeans asking 340 million Americans to defend us. And the American defense secretary, when he was at the Munich Security Conference, he said that Europeans should develop their own industry, I absolutely agree. So how can you develop your industry if you are not investing or procuring weapons from your own industry? That is what we are doing with European money.
Do you think it is realistic that Europe will be fully ready for war in 2030, as you said in the white paper?
We need to be ready to deter Putin. This will not be accomplished by reading the white paper to him. We need to be stronger than Putin, we need to remember at the end that we are ten times economically stronger than Russia. Sometimes, we forget. We need to have political will and we need to invest in our defense capabilities. We need to forget the idea that somebody else would take care of our security.
